Freight 360

Fighting for Change: Inside the TIA Policy Forum | Episode 313

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The trucking industry faces a major safety crisis—1 in 5 trucks shouldn’t be on the road, 97% of carriers lack safety ratings, and nearly a quarter of drivers stopped during inspections don’t even have a CDL. At the TIA Policy Forum in D.C., industry leaders pushed for long-delayed safety standards and legislation like the Household Goods Shipping Consumer Protection Act. With freight volumes at historic lows, brokers need layered protection—education, procedures, and technology—to guard against fraud and theft. This isn’t just about business; it’s about public safety and accountability, and real change will only happen if people demand it from Congress.

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Speaker 1:

All right, welcome back Another episode of the Freight 360 podcast we just wrapped up. Well, I wasn't on it last week, but a four-part series. That was a pretty good one, Ben. All about some of the wild things going on, from ELD fraud to just scams and unsafe practices. How'd you feel that series went?

Speaker 2:

It was one the most interesting and eye-opening few weeks.

Speaker 2:

Honestly, I can remember even doing the show, like even maybe going back to the pandemic, like I learned so much.

Speaker 2:

And, to be honest, I've been in this like weird emotional area where I'm just like still shocked at how bad some of these things are. And it's changed my framework of how I honestly view the whole industry and how I view when or if it can turn around and what would need to happen for those things. And I don't just mean like fraud and like better things. I mean just like there is such rampant like just handing out of CDLs to just anybody and everybody from so many places that I'm like no wonder rates have not cycled in four years when that has never happened for more than a year and a half. And I'm like it also makes me really wonder realizing how intertwined that is with the government and all these things. And I'm just like I don't know that rates will ever pick up unless you get the slowest part of the entire country to actually address these things government and regulation and I'm like, honestly, like it's kind of depressing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we're going to today. We're going to talk through I just got back from the TIA policy forum late last week. We're going to talk through all of what's going on on that side of this equation. But first, if you're brand new here, make sure to check out the rest of our content, whether it's on YouTube or on Facebook and our group, or if you're, just go to our website Freight360.net. You got all the content downloadable stuff full length podcast shorts, educational videos, blogs. You've got the Freight Broker Basics course. If you're looking for a training option for yourself, if you're new, or maybe for your team, if you're, if you're growing beyond just yourself, leave us comments. We answer them on our final mile segment that comes out Tuesdays. Comment on YouTube, send us a message to the website, et cetera. So all that good stuff like share, subscribe. You know the usuals Anything in the news before we hit on some sports and then get into it.

Speaker 2:

There's been a lot of things in the news I don't even know.

Speaker 1:

I mean, there's always like the tariff stuff, like tariffs are on, tariffs are being challenged, tariffs are back on Trump's trying to negotiate with certain countries to alleviate tariffs.

Speaker 2:

Well, that I mean the Supreme Court is going to hear, I think in November, whether or not they're going to uphold them or throw them out entirely, which could be a giant curveball to everything, because the money gets refunded. The whole, all of the government debt is based on that income coming in and, like actual real interest rates aren't coming down, even though the Fed did reduce interest rates last week.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, what did it go down? Twenty five basis points, or what did it do?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it went down twenty five basis points. But I don't think everyone necessarily understands that, like in the news or even when, like anyone talks about it, they think that, like when the Fed changes which is the short term interest rate, it's basically what banks can borrow from the Federal Reserve overnight, that's the rate that the Fed can reduce. But like everyone's mortgage and like those interest rates are based on, like the real interest rate or the demand for government debt. So like the Fed can reduce the overnight rate but mortgage rates haven't really come down because our government deficits up, there's uncertainty around tariffs, there's uncertainty under who and what's going on with the Fed and Supreme Court cases. So like, if other countries don't want to buy more government US government debt, the real interest rate doesn't come down, no matter what the Fed does.

Speaker 1:

And that's why yeah, because they're not directly tied. They correlate typically, but they're not directly tied.

Speaker 2:

They correlate typically, but they're not tied and, like these other things have a bigger impact on it. And that's why, like, even the Fed's comments recently are kind of unsettling, because normally when they reduce interest rates, there's a sense of knowing what's around the corner. And the Fed is making statements of like yeah, we don't really know. Like it looks like the job market is related to the immigration policy that could be causing this. It could be that's why unemployment is up. We're not really sure how these things will shake out. We don't know how much of these tariffs are going into inflation. Some of those numbers came out recently. They looked a little better than expected, but, to be honest, like if the thing that I care about most and all of that stuff look at what the CAS index is, which is freight shipments in the country, and it is the lowest. It's only been this low two other times in the past 20 years.

Speaker 2:

08, great recession and beginning of the pandemic are the only times the United States has moved around this little of things being purchased or sold. So, like you can say, gdp is whatever, but at the end of the day, we're not going to restaurants, we're not buying things, people aren't spending money. When there's less freight moving, the economy is not doing well and it is shrinking. The economy is not doing well and it is shrinking Like I don't care what is a technical recession. When you can look at the number of trucks moving freight every day, is that one of the lowest points in the past 25 years? I'm like that's not good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I was doing. I was doing some research on that actually earlier this morning to try and see like what the non freight media world is saying about all that in general. And it came down I saw like non freight related media talking about the oversupply of trucking assets that all you know came into the market post covid and right, and it's what's hilarious. And then you still hear people say like there's a truck driver shortage of CDL shards and it's like there is not, like there you're being fed that information by lobbying groups, you know ATA, for example, and it makes its way to headlines when it's just it's not the reality in our industry. So you know, but anyway, sports man, I don't know. No, but anyway, sports man, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

So I watched NFL Red Zone this weekend on Sunday to kind of watch like every game that was going on, because I went to the Bills game Thursday night. Nice win over Miami. But, dude, a ton of like blocked kicks and just wild endings. The Steelers game you got the W there, the Browns beat. The Packers game you got the W there, the Browns beat the Packers somehow. Philly I don't know if you saw the Philly game. They were about to lose to a game, winning field goal from the Rams and Philly blocked a field goal and ran it back for a touchdown. Yeah, buccaneers Jets game was another one just like that. There were so many just wild, absolutely wild games. But the Steelers man 2-1. I think Aaron Rodgers is kind of feeling good there.

Speaker 2:

Looking pretty decent, I will say. I mean two quick touchdowns. I don't think he had more than 67 yards between after the first two touchdowns and the touchdown in the last couple minutes. So pretty slow offensively the majority of the game and it's just the O-line. I don't think he had the time to go down field and really open up some more options for him. So in fact Roethlisberger was talking about that last week is that they really need and I can't remember who he was. He was singling out somebody on the O-line that he thinks is just like absolutely not able to keep up.

Speaker 1:

You look at your division man, the AFC North. The Browns are the Browns, the Bengals lost Joe Burrow, which I was curious. If I know Steven wasn't on. He didn't talk at all in last week's episode. Yeah, but he's got to be seen Usually like the Bengals start off 0-2 and then start, you know, getting some wins and they start off 2-0 and now they're going to have some losses. So but yeah, it's Baltimore's 1-2, pittsburgh's 2-1. It should be an interesting AFC North, maybe a wild card spot for the Steelers, depending on what happens in Baltimore, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Still a few undefeated teams out there the Bills, the Colts looking really good this year Chargers, philly and the Bucks and the Niners there's six teams left left haven't lost a game yet. I was talking to Trey last night. I'm going to go on his show this afternoon. He's like man. He's like when the Chiefs go to Orchard Park to play the Bills, he's like pretty sure the Bills are going to be 7-0. And I was like, yeah, we have a fairly easy schedule early on all of our well, I shouldn't say fairly easy, because all of our difficult opponents are all at home. So you get a little, you know, get the home field advantage and whatnot, but I'm looking forward to it, man.

Speaker 1:

It's going to be a good season here. So if anyone's a baseball fan, we're wrapping up the season this week and you've got to race for some wild card spots in the American League. So if you're tuned in on that, I think it's Detroit, boston, Houston and Cleveland, I think are like the four that are all fighting for like three spots. So good luck to all your teams out there. Is it Ryder cup coming up?

Speaker 2:

It is. I think it's this week and I should have known that, but I have had a busy week and haven't had a chance to take a look at this. But yeah, 99% shorts this week let's see rider cup.

Speaker 1:

Uh, it's always a fun one. We'll see. I don't have. I don't have anything in front of me to reference here. It's at beth page. So long, it's long island, right, I know it's in new york, yes, um, I just know that I think kevin dillon the the actor. He's an entourage and a bunch of other stuff. I'm pretty sure he's like a member there. I've heard him on podcasts talking about beth page. So, um, all right, let's get into it. Ben had a nice week on the hill. Um, what, uh, you want to ask me? I mean, what do you? How do you want to do this?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I'm well, I'm kind of curious about all of it, because I haven't had a chance to catch up with you at all.

Speaker 1:

Um yeah so.

Speaker 2:

So I'll kind of give you like a high level overview, and then we'll get into the like um.

Speaker 1:

This was my fourth year going to the policy forum and if you guys don't understand how this works, the tia is transportation intermediaries association. If you're not a member, I highly recommend it. Ben and I um, along with Chris Jolly, we're actually coaches for their new broker training program and they're a great organization with a few thousand member companies that are. They're basically our voice right. They're a lobbying organization. They help set industry benchmarks and standards and things like that. They provide model contracts and they're a good, great organization that represents us as brokers. So throughout the year they have a government affairs division that spends time with members of Congress and staffers about various topics and issues that are related to our industry. Right there Again, they're our voice day in and day out throughout the year while we're doing our job. And then once a year they do a big fly in event where whoever wants to participate flies into DC and we spend a an entire day on the Hill visiting as many members of Congress as we possibly can.

Speaker 1:

You kind of break up into different groups based on the state that your company's in, so like I was on Team Tennessee, because my company's based in Tennessee and I don't think anyone was there from Kentucky. So we hit up a Kentucky office as well and you talk about, we kind of blitz them, we blitz the Hill and talk about, as many of the you know, we reiterate the issues that maybe they they have heard about or haven't heard about. So we we add on in one big fell swoop to what the governor government affairs division does throughout the year. So then, in addition to that, there's a bunch of other ancillary events and roundtables and meetings and panels and stuff like that that go on throughout the week. All right, so, like I said, this is the the fourth year now that I've been going down there and it really it came around the time that fraud became a rampant issue.

Speaker 1:

You know before that there's probably legislation and different discussion points, different discussion points. But when our industry came under heavy attack from, you know, double brokering, cargo theft, all the things we talked about the last month in that series, we you know we made a heavier push to get more members there and start telling our stories about how it's impacted our companies, our lives, et cetera. You know, 2022, I go there. I didn't know what to expect and it's a little intimidating the first time, but after a couple of meetings. You kind of get used to it and realize that you're either talking to a member of congress who puts their pants on the same way as you do, or you're talking to a low, mid or higher level staffer who, um, maybe isn't even listening to you and is just thinking about what they're gonna have for lunch, or they're learning from you, um, or they actually know more about this than you do, and you guys can talk together and learn from each other.

Speaker 1:

So it's it's really like to know how often the last one happened we, we had like one or two like that this year and I'll so I'll talk through some of them. But so, like you know, 2022, we go there and the general consensus is like what's a freight broker? Like they didn't really understand who we were and what the industry was. And then the next year they're like oh yeah, we remember you guys from last year. Um, and they're starting to like, you know, they remember what we do and we're re-emphasizing all these issues. So that was 2023.

Speaker 1:

By 2024, we had a house bill that was introduced and sponsored. That was the Household Goods Shipping Consumer Protection Act and that's the one that was intended to give the FMCSA the authority to impose civil penalties. Well, naturally, you have an election and you have a new Congress. So by the time we're there this year, that bill is still there, but it had to be reintroduced in the new Congress. It's under HR 880. Now I had a different I think it was like four digits last year, but anyway, hr 880, which now is an accompanying, accompanying Senate bill 337. So it's again. It's still the House of Goods should be Consumer Protection Act, but now we've got like bipartisan support and it's got a House and a Senate equivalent to it you know about to be hopefully passed, and there's a variety of different ways that a bill can get passed, but that's another discussion.

Speaker 2:

But what did they tell you about that? Right, and we've had some really good conversations. Just generally speaking. What is the expectation of when it could get passed?

Speaker 1:

Best case scenario gets passed and in that bill, like a lot of little bills get tossed in there like the great big, beautiful bill or whatever that that trump's pushed through like. That's an example of one of those. Another one, another way, and this was actually recommended to us by um congressman dejarley from tennessee. Um, we met with him directly and he's like you guys, you know, you only need to have he I forget the exact number he's like, but if, if you have that amount of people that are signed on to it, it can just be like, brought up when Congress is in session, voted on really quickly and passed and then sent to the Senate. So we don't know the exact number of people that have it, that are sponsoring it. But that's another avenue, and there's there's other various ones too. If they do a funding, a funding bill, they can tie it into that. I mean, there's, there's all kinds of ways to get a bill passed. By the way, it has to be, has to go through the House and then to the Senate. You know, then, if you know, legislation is approved and the whole other story then is like, are they actually going to follow through? And and you know, you know, do what you know, if the FMCSA has the authority, are they going to use it? And that's like a whole nother conversation, though, but that I mean, that's how far we've come in in a matter of of just four. It's really three years, but it was, you know, september of 22 to september of 25.

Speaker 1:

Um, what I thought was interesting, though, is like we started meeting with fmcsa last year, so this was this year, was the second year, and they they had the fmcsa's chief counsel, because the fmcsa hasn't had like a uh, a, like a head honcho in a little while. To my, there's been like interims and things like that, but there's a new guy coming in that we're fairly supportive of, but their chief counsel, who's a lawyer right, comes and speaks to us in the most political way possible, and you know he was asked a lot of hard questions like, hey, we've been doing this. You know why hasn't X asked a lot of hard questions like, hey, we've been doing this. We know why has an X, y and Z happened? And when can we expect ABC? Blah, blah, blah, and he gave the most. You know that's such a great question, and I really think that, you know, if we just all work together and blah, blah, blah, like he gave such canned answers.

Speaker 1:

It was. It was almost annoying, um, but you have to remind yourself that, like the FMCSA is not. They don't just care about brokers Like we're like the small, small potatoes compared to every trucking company authority that's out there and freight forwarders and moving companies and, you know, commercial bus companies they all fall under the FMCSA. So we had a meeting with him and then the the um after that, before we went on the hill and this is something that's really cool that I wasn't totally aware of is we had a briefing, bipartisan briefing, and this really like really cool uh room, like if you ever see like uh committees, committee meetings, like on tv, where like they're all staying there and like people are getting interviewed and whatnot, like it was one of those rooms. It's pretty cool and it was the a, a transportation reauthorization which basically reups the funding and the priorities for what's going to be spent on what and you know kind of the roadmap ahead, and it has to be reauthorized every like every five or six years.

Speaker 1:

So the current authorization expires at the end of fiscal year 2026, which is September 30th of next year, right, so they've got a year, which might seem like a lot of time, but there's a lot of backwards plan due to have it reauthorized going into October of 2026. So we kind of learn what that process is. A lot of what I'll talk about today and the things that we were asking for with these congressional meetings. The intent is not to pass individual bills but to make them part of this reauthorization. Next fall. Mention here that are. They're not new to anybody um we're we're waiting until at least a year from now before they could potentially be um written into. You know actual law here so it's kind of depressing.

Speaker 2:

It's funny is this is just like I had family that have worked in dc a long time and even like ants and things that have worked within the military and Congress and specifically on like medical things, and my always takeaway is basically like these things get passed with political capital, meaning like you got to have like a high ranking senator or congressman that is owed enough favors from others that he can whip the party and get them to support their bill, to push it to actually do it, which is, to your point, literally step one. Then do they have the ability not necessarily the authority or funds to actually implement it? Right, like I'm looking at the TIA thing you sent, right, and it's like number two on the list. Number one is repealing outdated requirements. Two, finalizing broker qualification standards. Three, clarifying the role of dispatch services. I just want to read number two right.

Speaker 2:

The bill directs the US Department of Transportation to finalize the broker and freight forwarder certification requirements that were enacted in MAP 21 more than a decade ago. These requirements ensure that brokers are operated by individuals with at least three years of experience or demonstrated industry knowledge. Here's the kicker Despite being law since 2012, these standards have never been implemented. This gap leaves the industry vulnerable to unqualified actors and potential fraud. Finalizing these rules will raise industry standards, strengthening oversight, and ensure those managing freight transactions are qualified and accountable. So, like this whole process you were just talking about, that took four years to get to. Here we're a year away from maybe some of these things getting implemented. The ones that were passed into law in 2012 still aren't implemented and still have had zero impact and nothing was done with them. So it's like you have this giant thing. You've got to get all the way to even get into that point. But even once you get to that point, that doesn't mean that those things are going to actually impact anything.

Speaker 1:

I'm glad you brought that one up, because that was super depressing. I want to. I'm going to circle back to that in a second. I want to wrap up the the the bill, the first one that we talked about, from last year as well the household goods. So this is the one that gives the FMCSA the ability to impose that $10,000 fine for-.

Speaker 2:

Double brokering, unlicensed brokering, yep Carrier tenders loads to other carriers should be a $10,000 fine per the FMCSA, but they can't one actually impose the fine or collect the fine.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, other part of that is going to require a physical address for brokers and carriers. So, for example, like PO boxes or your little UPS store addresses, like your little box there not going to be okay. So as of now, new applicants have to use an actual address, no PO boxes. But there's still like 6,000 that like we're grandfathered in and we want that to change right. So that's anyway. That's the Household Goods Act, broker Modernization Act, which is the one that you just mentioned, and again, this is the intent here is to have these looped into the reauthorization next year. Um repealing cfr 371.3c, broker transparency right, we want that to go away. Um altogether and that requirement to be totally you know it's outdated from 45 years ago. We wanted to see it gone. Um broker qualification standards.

Speaker 1:

So the, the TIA actually Started to implement this themselves. You know, because they said MAP 21 passed under President Obama, like stated that these were the standard right, but no one's finalizing them and actually like Saying you have to like Check the box and this is like, yeah, you've got to have industry experience or the equivalent education, which is why TIA is now telling all their new you've got to have industry experience or the equivalent education, which is why TIA is now telling all their new members if you don't have the experience that this requires, you have to go through our training so that we can self-certify you, saying that, like you didn't have the three years, but we've put you through the training that we believe is industry standard, that we can you know rightfully allow you to be a member of our organization and we feel that you have the knowledge you need, right, that's, that's the qualification standards. And then you've got the dispatch services, which is, like, what is a dispatch service? What are their you know limitations? Is there, is there any kind of like licensing or anything like that required? That's all part of that Broker Modernization Act, and you know to your point, how slow does stuff work in a federal government? Like, yeah, we, you know that MAP 21 was huge when it was passed in 2012. And like, here we are 13 years later and things that were part of that, just like I said before, just because they were written in doesn't mean they're actually being implemented Right, just because the FMCSA might get the ability to impose fines, are they going to right? Again, we don't know.

Speaker 1:

So any other thoughts on that modernization act? Cause the carrier selection one. That's the third, third big discussion we had. That. That is an interesting one. That kind of ties into what we talked about the last few weeks on the show. But any other thoughts on that?

Speaker 2:

um, modernization act which specific act of it I mean like. I mean which specific part? I mean like, I do think there should be accountability standards and some education for the industry, right, so like, I think it's a good thing. I mean like, but like, there's so many things I could break down in MAP 21 and during, at which time, like, things actually didn't get better or worse even over that decade, right, one of which is the requirement of MAP 21 that requires basically shipper I mean carriers to be treated as motor carriers or freight brokers to be treated as freight brokers.

Speaker 2:

Right, but to this day, there are major fortune fortune 100 companies that will literally just force a freight broker to sign a contractor as a motor carrier. And like I've looked that up and asked quite a few attorneys and like the way it stands is like the onus is actually on the broker, not the shipper that is the one requiring that agreement to be signed. And it's like it doesn't even address who has the leverage in that situation where it's like, yeah, map 21 says you, xyz company, need to give me an agreement as a broker. But then XYZ company goes sorry, you don't do business with me or sign it as a motor carrier. And then it's like, well, xyz company goes, sorry, you don't do business with me or sign it as a motor carrier. And then it's like, well, ok, in practice this means nothing.

Speaker 2:

And then when you look at it it says like we're required as brokers to make sure we don't mislead the shipper, when it's the shipper forcing us to sign an agreement that is in violation of that regulation. The second big one was they repealed a lot of the English language standards that were basically around since the 1920s because of the driver shortage then, which is the beginning of how all this issues with CDLs and them just being handed out to non-domicile drivers and people with no addresses and different statuses, opened the door wide, open, right and it's like and then it precedes the ELDs, which made the roads less safe, made incidents, accidents go up more effective or in any way improved from what they were prior to that Exactly.

Speaker 1:

So the last one on here and again, this kind of ties into safety and you know the some of the carrier situation we talked about in the last month is the, the motor carrier safety selection standard act, and I don't know why these all have super long, hard to say. I don't know, but this is one that we we brought I think it paid by the word, yeah, we. So we we had brought this up as kind of like an ancillary, ancillary, additional like discussion point last year, but it wasn't a big lobbying push. But. But the issue here and this has been for years is, if you look at the FMCSA, the S in FMCSA Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration should be like one of the primary focuses of that agency right is safety.

Speaker 2:

So when we look at safety ratings for motor carriers, National average is 20%, meaning one in five trucks is not safe to be on the road right now. That's the actual number put out by the safety standards. One in five of the trucks you drive past shouldn't be on the road.

Speaker 1:

I'll give you even scarier stats, right. The stats that we had as of last week were that 97% of motor carrier authorities were unrated, right, unrated. So out of 100 companies that are out there, three of them we know if they're safe or if they're not safe right, know if they're safe or if they're not safe right 97.

Speaker 2:

And wait, and of those we don't even know, and of those three out of 100, only four out of five trucks are safe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly so, and that is wild. So basically, what this says is the FMCSA needs to create a federal standard for what is considered safe versus unsafe. Because right now, with all these unrated companies, if there's a you know we do a lot of interstate, you know like you might cross through a dozen states in a long haul shipment shipment. Think about all the jurisdictions that you run through and what those courts are going to determine that they think is one standard versus the other jurisdiction standard. So like if I'm picking up in Boca and delivering in Buffalo, right, but there's a crash that happens in Virginia, like which court is going to take that case? What is their definition of you know the standard, you know, et cetera. So we've got all these different jurisdictions that you know don't have the same standard.

Speaker 1:

So the FMCSA should I mean I'll put it as simple as this it should be a green light or a red light. Like if I'm a broker and I'm looking to hire a carrier to contract them to haul load for my customer, I should be able to go into an FMCSA database which, realistically, if that were to happen, I'm sure companies like Highway and your vetting tools would extract that data and present it to you in a cleaner version. But the federal government should be able to tell me this carrier is safe or they are not safe. Right and sure You've got your condition on the middle or whatever, but a federal standard. That's basically says, like they carry the insurance that were required and they have the correct safety scores based on our inspections, that we believe that they meet. We're stamping off approval that they meet our federal standard. So if you select to use this carrier, you have done your due diligence to hire a safe carrier. Let me let my dog out here real quick.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, and I think there's something that even precedes that.

Speaker 2:

Right, like we're saying, we want the standard to be at a company level, but it really needs to be at a truck level because when you actually take into account the nuances of how insurance can be purchased and actually level and not an actual asset level, which is also a huge issue.

Speaker 2:

And then let's layer on, during DOT week of 2024, which is the last results, I think, that are available I think something like 22 percent of people pulled over during Blitz week had no CDL, like just didn't have a commercial driver's license, like.

Speaker 2:

So not only are one in five trucks on the road not safe, but when they were randomly pulling people over during Blitz Week, one in five had no driver's license just not a CDL at all. Right, and when you want to talk about, like these are the roads that everyone's tax dollars pay for, these are the roads that every tax dollar goes to pay, to pay for highway patrol, state law enforcement, the turnpikes, all of the roads you take your family on, your kids ride on a school bus to get to school, ambulances need to use to get to hospitals, every single thing that our entire country depends on to function with transportation, whether it's transporting people or goods. 20% of those vehicles are not safe, driving 80 miles an hour, three feet away in the other direction from your family going on vacation. Every single time you leave the house, Let me make that scarier for you.

Speaker 1:

So I'll make it scarier for you During DOT Blitz Week.

Speaker 2:

right, right, one out of five, right, and those are of the carriers that knew for months in advance that there was going to be a dot blitz week yeah, right, like still drove so, and that was one of the so, one of the things we talked- about think how bad it is on an average day, because they knew that week was when they were pulling people over and that was so.

Speaker 1:

That was the thing that we we talked about with the chief counsel of FMCSA. One of the one of the members of our group said like we love the you know and the increased inspections for Blitz Week, but can you just not announce when you're going to do it? So it's a true litmus test of what's going on?

Speaker 2:

No way, because the trucking companies are lobbying these people.

Speaker 1:

His response was the way the FMCSA is right now, the intent, like their actual intent, is not to. He didn't say it directly, but he basically said this is like the intent isn't to actually identify, it's not to really fix the problem, it's to make the inspections happen and to make it known that we have a blitz week, like it's more about the event than it is about fixing the event, the things that we find in the underlying problem, correct what?

Speaker 2:

Well, here's another one. There are certain shipper requirements that need a safety rating for a carrier to work with that shipper Right that need a safety rating for a carrier to work with that shipper right. And I've had clients over the years and I've been involved in some of these where they're like dude, like this company wants to give me business, they're great lanes and like we have a good company with new equipment and experienced drivers, we don't have a safety rating. I called the FMCSA and requested to have an audit so I can get the safety rating and the FMCSA like at least six or seven of these I've been involved in and been on some of these calls and the FMCSA has said if you are requesting an audit, we know you don't need one. You're going to be the last one that gets it. Like they've literally told you this.

Speaker 1:

The reality is too like the FMCSA is given like a year after authority is granted before they're supposed to do an audit Right, and you get a lot of turnover, like you said, 3%, what's that?

Speaker 2:

Two 3% is the number you said of all the trucking companies are actually audited.

Speaker 1:

Yep, yep, or have that rating, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So another, another point that came up then.

Speaker 1:

This has to do with a lot of the, the foreign fraud that goes on with trucking companies, brokerages too, um, but where you've got, like, you know, an offshore company who's got all their minions, you know, like think about all the eld fraud we talked about in the last few weeks right, all their minions driving on on the, the us roads, and the boss is sitting over in a foreign country, like really the one making all the money.

Speaker 1:

So one of the guys had suggested, like, well, if you, you know, if you drive into a port or a rail yard or an airport, right, you need to have a twit card. Right, and every year 600000 drivers have that, you know, they've got to have that TWIC card. It's the transportation workers identification credential and basically you're doing fingerprints, you're doing background check, home net security, all this stuff, right. And if we just required the owner or the principal of the trucking company to have a TWIC card, that would, you know, huge barrier to entry right there. Right, so, because they're not going to go if they're over in Eastern Europe or in Pakistan or wherever, right, like where we see a lot of these bad actors rooted from they're not going to take the time to travel to the States and go through.

Speaker 2:

No, but they'll probably just have one of their truck drivers be considered the owner of the company and they'll give them the TWIC card, Right?

Speaker 1:

right, but with your background check and your fingerprints, and all of that tied to the ownership of the company, who's going to agree to do? That when they know they're transferring authorities and it could come back on you. It would be a big deterrent, um. So that was an interesting one that that somebody had brought up.

Speaker 2:

Um, do you know what I would have asked all all that to say.

Speaker 1:

Like a lot of good discussions, and one of so I know I mentioned the, the service transportation reauthorization, and I'm glad we went on. We were on the hill last tuesday and I'm glad we were because when I sat down in Marsha Blackburn's office she was, I think, one of our last ones of the day. It was a great conversation. One of the staffers that we met with from Knoxville or is he Knoxville or Chattanooga, I forget but Steam Logistics, big brokerage, right. He's like, yeah, like a lot of my buddies from like college, like they, they all work at Steam now. He's like I know what brokers do. I know a double. He's like I know all this stuff you guys are are dealing with and he goes.

Speaker 1:

We have to submit Marsha Blackburn's priorities for that service transportation reauthorization by Friday. And I said, well, I'm glad we're meeting with you on Tuesday, you know, cause you guys, you know, and. But he basically said like we're, we're so ahead of all this. We're like he. He took her in like this is a Senator, um, of the state of Tennessee. She's actually running for governor next year Um, she's walked through and seen like the sales floor, and so I guess the takeaway here is we've got a lot of these congressional leaders that they're aware of our industry now, they're aware of the issues and they know what they can do in order to actually make an impact. And again, we're not. We're not. We're a crumb on their plate, right, but the louder your voice is, the bigger that crumb is going to be compared to everything else on the plate.

Speaker 2:

That's the question I'd like to ask somebody like that is OK. How much support do you need to actually get some of these things in effect, right? How many other senators you need? Are there ones that are specifically more influential than others that their support would allow this to get done faster? Who are they and how many right that their support would allow this to get done faster? Who are they and how many right?

Speaker 2:

The second question I would ask as a follow-up to that is okay how many phone calls do they need to either receive from their constituents or dollars donated to their reelection campaign to be the equivalent of the opposing force?

Speaker 2:

Because what we've learned, and I've learned in the past month going into this, is like these trucking lobbying companies are making so much money employing cheap labor, turning them over and treating them like garbage, and they are funding campaign reelection campaigns, right, like these giant lobbying groups for huge trucking companies are making a fortune on cheap labor.

Speaker 2:

Americans are losing their job, they're losing their ability to earn an income, all so that a trucking company can make more money, and then, to keep that whole thing spinning, they're donating to their local congressman and senator. So what is that dollar number and who does it need to apply to and how many phone calls? Right, because if with enough pressure and enough money, like the problem is large enough, it's just that nobody is aware of it. Nobody is up as upset as they should be and, honestly, like I want to just be like, listen, how many more people need to die in accidents before this becomes urgent enough to solve, and how much of our stuff needs stolen as a country before this becomes something that needs to be solved inside of another decade?

Speaker 2:

Because it's $35 billion a year times 10 years, right, that's $350 billion, and that number is going to go up. What half a trillion dollars is going to be stolen over the next 10 years if they move at the same speed they did with MAP-21, which still did nothing? So in a decade they got nothing done. How much more do we lose and how many more people die? How many more families lose their job before this becomes a big enough problem that, like you, getting a few donations to your next reelection campaign is less important than your constituents need for safety?

Speaker 1:

So the way I think that you know if you take away donation, you know donor money. The way that stuff gets done is there's, there's a couple ways. So, um, when somebody, so every member of of Congress, sits on some committee, right, there's house committees and their Senate committees, things like your um commerce committee and your transportation and infrastructure committee and your um, uh, defense I don't think it's called defense committee, but anyway, like you know, your military type committee. So like we met with one of the members who sat on a committee that really didn't have much to do with us but he had a guy, a staffer, in his office that was focused on transportation and infrastructure. So, talking to the member of of the house, a lot of it was like, yeah, that's not really like the committee I sit on, that's not like I don't know about a lot of this stuff because it's not my, it's not my job to be an expert in that.

Speaker 1:

So he goes to his staffer like hey, where do we sit on all this? What does it mean for whatever? And so you have to find the right staffer. Who's who's the one that is the one in their ear, telling them how to vote on things. And then when you talk to someone who sits on the right committee, like the transportation infrastructure, like they know all this stuff, or commerce committees, they understand all this stuff. And when you start having like Danielle did a great job at saying like this is a national security issue with like fraud and whatnot.

Speaker 1:

When you start having truth. If you ever like, turn on national news and you see an oversight committee that's basically grilling somebody on why they didn't do their job. That's, I think, how this stuff gets the attention it needs. Is it needs exposure? Right, because you can donate all you want and influence somebody to to push for certain changes in government and legislation or to vote a certain way or to vote a certain way. But when they're pressured publicly about and they're looking bad for not doing their job or for allowing things to happen that are happening in our industry, that it's like I said, I think the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I think that is where you really get pressure on people and they're forced to start listening and either do their job or they don't get reelected. So but again, you know we, we put so much time and effort in the last few years. You know doing this every year in the TI staff throughout the year, on the Hill, every single week, and it's, I mean, it feels good looking back at like how far we've come, but it's still. It's like man, it's been this long and you know, if this, if this stuff goes into into law like it's going to take how long, and then will it even be? Will they actually use the powers they have and do the things that the law states? So I don't know. I think it's a continued effort and the one thing, the takeaway I want to have for brokers out there listening and this was a really good discussion we had as members of TIA there's a nice panel there of leadership from various brokerages is like what are the things that we can do as brokers, knowing that we operate in this environment and understanding the gun that is pointed at us from these bad actors? And it came down to three things and a lot of people their first thought is like oh, I just need some software, I need some technology, and that's on the list, but it's the bottom of the list out of these three priorities.

Speaker 1:

But the first priority was that your staff at all levels in your company needs to have the right education on what is going on. Right, you know what are the threats against us. How are these folks targeting things? Whether it's hacked emails or putting placards on the side of trucks that are, you know, fake or chameleon carriers. We talked a lot about that. So it's just, it's this simple education of staying up to date on what's happening in the news. You know how did somebody get burned? If you're not, if you can't learn from someone else's mistake, you're, you're doing a disservice to yourself. Whenever I hear about oh, I had a load stolen because of this happened, I'm taking note, either physically or mentally, like okay, they made that mistake. I don't want to make that mistake in my company, just having the education.

Speaker 1:

The second one is the proper processes, your SOPs, your standard operating procedures within your organization. And that is hey, if we're going to vet a carrier, we are going to go through X, y and Z steps. If carrier looks like this, here's our requirements for us to contract them. If they look like this, maybe we have a different set of standards. And I personally, for Pierceville-wide logistics, we have a written out well, it's in Google Drive, but we have a written out standard operating procedure for carrier vetting and we've built that over time and I keep it updated. It's a living, breathing document and as things change, we change that and we retrain and re-educate in our entire organization as things evolve.

Speaker 1:

And the last one is technology. Right, because there is always technology that's out there that will assist you to do your job better, and that's things like you know, your carrier vetting and monitoring and all that good, the tools that are out there, everything from highway, rmis, mcp, carrier share, like there's plenty of tools out there. You've got other vendors that can assist you with um protecting yourself, whether at a macro level or at a load level. Things like gen logs, uh, quick scope, text locate um, various other um tracking telematics, some ELD integrated, some not. Tools that are out there that you can ensure that you're sending a rate, like Highway, for example, with their rate con tool. Like you're sending a rate confirmation to the right person and it's not a hacked email or quick scope, right Before that driver gets a PO number to get loaded, I have verified that they are in the right location with the right truck at the right time, right. If they don't meet all that criteria, they don't, they don't pass, go or get released a pickup number.

Speaker 1:

Gen logs A great one Right, like I can literally see, like I found one a few weeks back that we talked about where stolen loads, weeks back that we talked about where stolen loads, and thanks to gen logs and they're, I think Ryan put out today, they have like 600 terabytes of images now or something like that, like a quarter of what Netflix has and data that they've gotten in truck pictures but we're able to see like a VIN number, and then I see all the pictures of that VIN number on the highways and literally like I see where they committed fraud before, like we could have prevented that, and that's something that we learned about. But there's technology out there, but it's all three of those, right, it's the education, the procedures and processes and then the technology. You know, if you skip one of those three, you leave yourself vulnerable. Right, if you've got great SOPs and you've got great technology, but someone just doesn't understand they don't have the education to understand why or what they're supposed to do, it fails. Right, if they know what to do and why they're doing it, but they don't have the tools to execute it, well, that sucks too, if they know. You know, if they have all the education and they have all these great tools but you don't have a roadmap or an SOP of how to implement it all these great tools but you don't have a roadmap or an SOP of how to implement it, it's pointless. So it's a constant battle.

Speaker 1:

My biggest take on it is that, like you need, you need buy in down to the lowest level. And if you have people on your team that just repeatedly fail to believe or understand how risky this is, or they fail to use the tools and processes that you provide for them, you need to take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself is that person a fit for your team? Because this is the kind of stuff that can, you know, crumble your business. It can tarnish a brand that's been around for 40 or 50 years. You could even like, if you have like we have agents at Pierce, right, we have one great agent has one bad you know load and you know it could cost them a customer, which could cost them their agency, right, their business. So rant over. That's my take on all of it, ben.

Speaker 2:

I would say this right, and everything you listed right, all of which are recommended, and I think is a really good point that you need layers of security. There is not one layer that catches everything and in every single one of those layers there is a vulnerability some bigger, some smaller, right in tech, in your second lever of tech, and maybe in your third, in your second lever of tech and maybe in your third. So those loopholes or those areas that can be exploited when you layer on the second one, there might be a loophole over here, but your second layer the loophole's over here. So technically, this one catches that loophole and this one catches this one, and then your third one might have a loophole, but it catches the first two and maybe has another one.

Speaker 2:

So you get a little more security and then the same thing with operational procedures right, like there is not one thing you can do that protects you from everything. But if you've got four layers, two or three layers of tech right, maybe even three or four in some instances, and now you have operational education and insight into what to look for in the information you're getting from that tech right, and then some manual things on top of it, you're getting very close to 100. Like nothing's 100. But, like we talked about this before, air is like dude. Every single load that I've seen stolen, okay, that I've ever been involved in probably 40 in the past year and a half, give or take maybe two years the first thing I do is I do all the steps we talked about. I go through every layer of my tech stack and I look to see where I can find the red flags right, and in every single one I found the red flags, usually three, four or five that were missed right, the one that always seems to get me. The answer is just calling the older FMCSA phone number and just, hey, want to verify this load? Does this dispatcher work for you or is this truck registered with you? And in every one of those stolen loads the person that picked up the phone went oh dude, don't book a load with us. Like our stuff got hacked or I sold the company and I've been getting phone calls. So every single one I've been able to find out that you shouldn't book the carrier after the load got stolen, which means if you would have called them before you booked the load, you would have prevented that right. But even as this the whole episode was outplaying, I'm like I know the vulnerability in the phone call too and I know how criminals are working around that one too. So like none of them are foolproof, but like that is the one that I probably talk about the most because it is the easiest one to do, even for companies that have very cheap tech stacks or newer companies that can't afford every program out there. Like just that phone call prevents so much of this.

Speaker 2:

But I do absolutely Cause I had a call with one of our clients yesterday on this and I'm like I absolutely would not move a load in this industry without at least these two pieces of software, like I wouldn't do it. And I'm like I know what to look for, I know all of the free software and you and I have relationships with companies that, like we can get information that isn't even readily available. And I'm like I absolutely still wouldn't move a load without these tools, right, like, even though they're not perfect, I'm like they're absolutely a necessity in this environment. That, like you just absolutely shouldn't be doing things without any of these things. And we talk about them a lot. We've talked about them last week because it's just like so many of these things that were built on weren't secure to begin with. Right, the ELD was supposed to be this big secure thing, and secure to begin with, right, the ELD was supposed to be this big secure thing. And then we realized like, oh, nobody's looking at these, nobody's certifying them, and basically they just have big, wide, open back doors and they can all be manipulated. So, like it didn't, it gave. It was even worse because it gave everybody a false sense of security, which allowed criminals to steal more, because they're like, oh, we've got an ELD, give us the load. And brokers are like, oh yeah, eld, give us the load. And Brooks was like, oh yeah, eld, where'd my load go? Three loads are gone. What happened? Wait a minute. That driver's macro point just pinged in another country. Wait, what is going on here? Right, and it's like, little by little, you start to see how bad the infrastructure is that we all rely on, which goes back to this whole conversation of, like the FMC say to begin with, is just like the entire database of what they should be overseeing is absolutely vulnerable, absolutely is ineffective, inefficient, way behind, where the industry is Everybody's aware of it and they're just slowly moving towards a potential fix to this, which, who knows when that comes up?

Speaker 2:

But, like to me, the biggest point that I think we should all be talking about in the industry is just like go to the things that are the simplest. Like talk to people, like your friends, your, like anybody you talk to. Like it's not safe to drive your car down the road, knowing that one in five trucks should not be on the road. Right, I mean like if you looked at a video of what happens when a tractor trailer hits anything, right, like that is the risk everybody takes driving on the roads every single day and nobody is doing a damn thing to fix it or even improve it. Right, you guys are, and I commend all the work that TIA is doing and all the folks we work with and you going there every year, and it's like, even with all of this effort and good intention, like nobody's coming to save us. Like I genuinely think we all should be emailing our congressmen. We should be making phone calls and just saying what are we doing about this? Because the more of us that are talking about this, the more the elected officials are going to pay attention and feel like their jobs depend on it, and it should.

Speaker 2:

One of the basic expectations we have as a citizen in this country is to drive our car down the street and not worry about being killed by somebody that isn't licensed, driving an 80,000 pound vehicle that isn't safe to be on the road. Right Like that is a pretty low bar that we have as an expectation of our society and was considered the best country to exist on the planet up until this point. But like we can't even meet that standard. Like that, to me, is absolutely insane. And that like nobody is incensed or frustrated or furious with how bad this is. I think it's just because of awareness. Like we talked about this in a lot of the past few episodes. It's just like so much of the folks in our industry talk about it from our points of view, which is really hard for the average person. That doesn't work in our industry.

Speaker 2:

To understand right, it's like somebody explaining to me, like the you know biomechanics of, like you know FDA approval and like you know peptides, like, yeah, that shit's way over my head. I don't live in that world but like we need to do a better job, I think, as an industry, of really simplifying what we're trying to do and what we need our government to do, which is, like, make the roads safer. Are the trucks on the road safe? The answer to that is no, unequivocally.

Speaker 2:

The information the FMcsa puts out shows they're not safe, shows how many of them aren't safe, shows that most of the drivers don't even have a cdl and the ones that do are getting them fraudulently. At the very least, some local news networks are starting to do pieces on this where, like dmvs are just being defrauded for people taking tests with cameras on their shirts or like mics in their ear. Like I mean, this is really bad and absolutely needs us as a country to talk to the people that shouldn't be fixing this in order for them to fix it, because otherwise, like it's out of sight, out of mind and if there's not another accident on the major news networks in the next couple of weeks, it just becomes old news and people go on with their day and just hey, if it's not on TikTok today, I guess it's not something I should worry about.

Speaker 1:

I wish the cargo theft would get more attention on national news too, like in the scale that it's happening. I remember like the pilferage in LA off the trains a few years back made some national headlines.

Speaker 2:

But this is not even close but it's hard, man.

Speaker 1:

It's hard to get any national news when you go back to earlier this year when they put all the entire New York Army National Guard in the prison systems and that didn't even make the national news. So. But Trump sneezes and it's going to be everywhere.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, it's a whole other conversation. That kind of terrifies me in the sense that, like, I just think that the more we thought we became connected on social media, the less connected we actually are to what's really happening. And again, not trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but like I think called an unintended consequence of what we thought was progress was actually societal regression of where we know much less about what's happening every day, how safe we are and whether or not anyone's doing anything about it, because somebody has a new dance video on TikTok and that's awesome.

Speaker 1:

So it's funny. You talk about progress. Do you know MAP 21 stands for moving ahead, for progress in the 21st century act. Yes, all right, good discussion. Let us know what you guys think, if you agree with what we're asking for, if there's other discussion points that you think the TIA should be pushing for, because this isn't just a once a year thing.

Speaker 1:

Like you know, I emailed everyone I met with last week. I emailed them yesterday and got some feedback from some of them, and these are conversations that you can have throughout the year. So if you know where your local congressman or congresswoman's office offices when they're not in DC, go stop by. Whether you meet a staffer or a legislative assistant or chief of staff or an intern or the member right, sit down and have these conversations. What's happening in their constituents area and how it's impact, impacting you know you and you know your, your team and your company. So that's how your voice will be heard, not just going to DC once a year and and you know, screaming on social media. Go, go, talk about it, share your stories, invite them to come out to your office and see what it's like and what you guys have all the money you have to spend to protect yourself, because the laws aren't doing it for you.

Speaker 2:

So I had a question for you. Two things One happy birthday, buddy. It was your birthday yesterday.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, man yeah.

Speaker 2:

The other question was you sent us a picture. I think there was a Senator from Nebraska. Did you end up sitting in that?

Speaker 1:

Senator from Nebraska.

Speaker 2:

And the reason I knew it was Nebraska is because on the episode I think you were out we were talking about, there was the, I think, secretary of state from I think I'm pretty sure it was Nebraska Let me pull up my pictures here. And they announced that they were going to do a driver immigration program with a country of I think it was with Kenya and Danielle put a bunch of stuff online that that country had like a four or 500% greater fatality risk of CDL drivers than like any other nation in the world and Werner was cited in it and like it blew up on social media to the point where the CEO of Werner like put out a public statement saying we're not involved in this and I'm like I hadn't heard anything from it since then. But you texted a picture of a senator from that state. Whenman from Tennessee.

Speaker 1:

Tim Burchett from Tennessee, marsha Blackburn, tennessee. I stopped by Tim Kennedy from New York's office just because he has a big cutout of Josh Allen. I don't see any Missouri ones or Nebraska ones. You'll have to send me what it was. I don't recall meeting anybody from Nebraska, though.

Speaker 2:

I thought you said you might have missed that, or like you didn't sit in there, but I'm looking up the names for the senators.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you probably, I probably sent you all the list of all the meetings that were happening. It was a picture, and whoever in that state that they would have had their own group and gone to it.

Speaker 2:

Oh, you know what it was. It was a picture of the TIA put out, cause I looked in the audience and you weren't in the photo and I sent it to you, I think, because they were and I was like, wait a minute. I'm like, I'm really curious because, like, this was pretty mainstream news for like that week and now they're saying there's no official agreement for Nebraska to hire Kenyan truck drivers, despite recent trade mission discussions and rumors fueled by the Kenyan press.

Speaker 1:

Apparently, so back to that whole thing and not to go down this rabbit hole, but that is where every press, every article I could find was from Kenya. It wasn't an American-based news outlet, the original sources at least, but I did not meet with them. But I, I mean, we probably I'm just going to guess here as an organization we probably had over a hundred people that were there and we had probably 40 states. So basically, like Tennessee group, we had Kentucky, because they didn't have anyone there. New York also had Massachusetts, so you kind of have states covering down for one another, typically have a lot of people from Chicago area, so Illinois, a lot of people from Texas, florida, another big one. So yeah, but yeah, good stuff, good conversation. Let us know what you guys think and hopefully we can continue to get the ball closer to the end zone on this stuff and keep reacting as things change and as the landscape evolves. So, ben, final thoughts.

Speaker 2:

Whether you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right.

Speaker 1:

And until next time go Bills.

People on this episode

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Benjamin Kowalski

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Nate Cross

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